EPA shuts down Idaho dredging?

[Ken B]

Seems we have been shut down, with the EPA using the clean water act to do it. I wasn't for sure what is going on and am still not sure even after reading the article in the May mining journal. Seems we need a permit but there is not one to be had. There is one meeting left and I don't know why if its already a done deal. The state is still selling permits but the feds are telling us "no you can't"???? WOW am I really lost. The local clubs first posted it last month, but they had talked to the DEQ, The last time I heard from the DEQ was 09 and they said then it was closed, but my suit stayed wet. Now the EPA tells me I can't dredge, my suit will still be wet. The local clubs are not strong enough and not meant to insult but feel they are at a loss and are just telling people not to dredge rather then fight it. Where do we go from here? I have been doing this for 30 years as a hobby, with the times as tough as they are a lot of people are now doing it to help with just paying the bills. My voice is loud when I want it heard but it usually ends up with me standing on someones neck until their face turns blue any help or advice would be great.

Ken Byers
Boise Id.

[Ken B]

As I read the hand out I got talking about the discharge permit I started having flash backs. I had seen this before, with a little research I found an almost twin to it from 2008 where it states they will have the permits ready in 2008, here we are 2011 with the same BS paper and them saying they will have the permits out by 2012. Whats going on? Any help would be great.

Thanks
Ken Byers
Boise Id.

[David Jackson Ingraham]

If You have a Republican representative in congress You need to write him, about this problem. You should complain that the EPA is exceeding there authority of regulating with out the Constitutional authority of the congress as required per Article 1, Section 8, "The Congress shall have Power To make Rules for the Government and Regulations of the land and naval forces." This means that it should be required that Congress must first approve any Regulation prior to enactment. Such a condition was invoked during the base closure process. Except that the approval was required for the Senate only. That this approval should be required for both houses of congress as the law required both houses to pass the original law of regulation. The approval responsibility of Congress is for the the compliance to the will of congress, not the prejudice of the federal agency.

[Ken B]

Front page of the Idaho Statesman certain organizations pushing EPA top close dredging. We need HELP before its to late.
Ken Byers
Boise Id

[David Jackson Ingraham]

Write to the Speaker of the House on line. Express your concern. Representative Haster is presently going after the Government who are attempting to destroy our mining rights, he has the authority to bring accountability to the EPA.

[scrib1]

Ken heading to BLM and Forest Service tomorrow to file my dredge permits and will see what i can find out we dredge 18 miles up past Murray Idaho on Eagle crk will see what i can find out and let you know John Scribner Northwest Gold Prospectors

[Ken B]

John, The state will give you one. Went to a DEQ meeting this morn, they tell us they have done what was needed on their end and sent their paper work to the EPA. From the mouths of the DEQ and state of Idaho.............go dredging..............but I get the feeling there is more to it then that. I love those meetings from 8:30 am to 12:30 pm on a WEEKDAY, go to work or call in sick to fight for our rights, I had a real bad cough at 7 this morn but its gone now ha

[scrib1]

Ken picked up dredge permits and letters of intent the gal that knows what is going on was out in the field as soon as she gets back she will call or e-mail me some infor. no one else seemed to know much will keep you informed from this end John

[Ken B]

John any new news up your way? I'm headed to the water Thursday- Monday. Guess that will be the fastest way to see whats up.

[David Jackson Ingraham]

Hope you find allot of gold, or enough to cover the cost of the adventure.

[Ken B]

Thanks David, one of the better spots on the claim washed out a big corner and built a island down stream big enough to park a truck on, its a whole new claim for about 200 yards. I wonder if the EPA will issue mother nature a ticket for all the damage she did ha.

[Mike S.]

Howdy fellas, any new info on the dredging permits, are we allowed to try and make a living in this radical liberal world???? I already have my DEQ permit and been highbanking out of Idaho City. We realy need to get together to stop the ICL liberals from taking away our livelyhood. Is Risch for or against the small miners?? Who else can we contact to make aware of the plight ahead of us???

[Ken B]

Mike, You have a DEQ permit? The state is issuing permits you get them from IDWR. At the last DEQ meeting they said they have turned in all their paper work to the EPA and we are waiting on them, in 2007 I got the same letter from the EPA with the attachment that has the most commonly asked questions and answers on it it stated 07 was closed and they would have permits out in 08 NOTHING ever came from it and now I get the SAME stuff saying 2011 is closed and they will have permits out for 2012, they were pushed to do it by the ICL with threats of law suits. The article that was in the paper had a comment from an EPA employee saying they never really saw anything they disliked happening. The ICL assumes there are dredges everywhere in the thousands I guess, in reality I would guess less then 250 dredges hit the Idaho waters and some for less then a month a year. The area I work had more material washed out of it this spring then I could move with a 5 inch dredge in two years working 8 hours a day for seven months, it didn't just wash out banks it cut to bedrock that area of the stream will never be the same, and is extremely altered.
Two years ago there was a bank that was getting cut hard each year and was on the verge of rerouting the WHOLE stream we used the dredge and every rock from mid stream to rebuild the corner and the stream is running how it always had. For further note the gold that came from 2 solid days building that corner barely showed in the pan as we thought it was a bad area, we did it to save the area guess that makes me a bad guy.
Problem we have now is to many prospectors running their mouths but not knowing what they are talking about, we need education and help and I'm not sure where to find it. Things like the local clubs posting emails telling us its illegal to do any prospecting is not a good start. They were at the same meeting I was the DEQ said they and they state of Idaho are ok with dredging whatever that means. I really feel without help its the start of the end of small scale mining in Idaho. I have called and talked to the large mining companies looking for help and they are saving their silver bullets for when they need them and what nothing to do with our fight, really bad part is I believe they are what we need fighting with us and could be the education factor we need, I mean after all they have the lawyers, research, and knowledge I'm hunting for.
As for as I go I'll see ya in the water!

[David Jackson Ingraham]

It is in the interest of our nation to codify the responsibility to the liberty of the people as protected by the 9th Amendment of the Constitution. Here is an understanding of the necessary duty to codify.

I previously wrote about the 9th Amendment and its interpretation. I have added more to its scope with this additional interpretation.



I hope you will respect my interpretation of this Amendment as I have been thinking about offering this interpretation as a California State Constitutional Initiative as the state interpretation of the 9th and 10th amendment. This will set a compliance to the 10th Amendment of responsibility of the people to define our rights and liberty.

I am writing with concern for our individual rights to liberty for the people.

We have become a nation where 1 of 16 people have been convicted of a Felony. That our nation prison system is a for hire service, with the objective of financial gain, to the point of corruption through support of political candidates, that will feather their nest. A money making proposition for law enforcement, the attorneys, prison systems, and the courts. The injustice to the people is representative of the tyranny of a police state in violation the Constitutional mandate to " secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity"...



The U.S. Constitution, 9th Amendment is there for that purpose to protect the individual liberty of the people. Quoted here: "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."



The first interpretation and responsibility of this Amendment is to establish the rights of the people as numbered in the list of amendments and articles, even though the statement of a right is not expressed, such as the 1st Amendment, with regards to "Congress shall make no law". This Statement has been made to have all law makers comply to the right of the people by all of the governments of our nation.



An additional 2nd interpretation of this amendment Leaves open a responsibility to Other Rights of the people not expressed, but open to constitutional protection as so stated in the 9th Amendment constitutional mandate “ Shall not be construed to deny others (other rights) retained by the people.



An additional 3rd interpretation is: The 9th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution has a duty for the judiciary to maintain a responsibility to respect the greater right of the people for the limitation of the jurisdiction of the law. Other wise, they should be found in contempt of the 9th Amendment, based on, " shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." With "others" representing a meaning of "other rights". The other rights of the people are those common to the individual survival, property rights, free trade, and freedom of the people for which common acceptance of society has understood the sense of this respect, but not limited too. Meaning that some settled law limitations have been determined in the past as an institutional constriction of these rights, which previously have not been judged to the responsibility of the 9th Amendment, as required for all the judiciary, the President, congress, state governors, legislators, county and city government leaders, to include all levels of government agencies as required for all, per their oath of duty and office to our U.S. Constitution. Specifically: when in doubt of a right, the right of the person in question will prevail.



The 4th interpretation is where a judgment for the right of the people is in conflict between interpretation between the Supreme Court of the United States and the Supreme court of the individual states, that which provides the greater respect for the right of the people, shall prevail. This is responsibility of respect for the rights of the people under the10th Amendment, and if a more restrictive law is created by the state than the federal law, then the federal law shall relieve the restriction of the state law based on the 9th Amendment.



Should a right have been judged by the Supreme Court with providing a greater right based on interpretation of the constitution and the sense of the people have said "no" to that right and that the people use the 10th Amendment process to change the right to a more restrictive understanding of the right, then it shall not be accepted as an Amendment due to the intent to “ Deny or Disparage” clause of the 9th amendment.


All interpretation are relative to the responsibility and duty of the 9th Amendment. That it represents a personal individual right for each and every one of us, that majority right’s do not trump individual rights protected by the 9th Amendment, and the 10th amendment.



Best Regards



David Jackson Ingraham

[Mike S.]

I'm sorry for the confusion Ken it was an IDWR permit, I was told the same thing by them about dredging. I'm heading up country tomorrow to poke around and see what's out there might even fire up the death dredge...ICL needs to be shutdown just like acorn, pull there teeth and they can't bite. These, I hate to call them "people" are a bad fugus and have no clue. They are behind this whole charade. I'm getting together with a friend tomorrow on the mountain, we want to come up with a plan to make flyers with info to post at sporting goods stores and send to sportsman clubs to make them aware of whats going on behind closed doors, typical liberals... We also plan on sending the same info to Risch, Crapo and who ever else sides with us. I'm a little lerry about Crapo, he was at the ICL meeting at Redfish a while back, he might be a RINO......

[Ken B]

David, Thanks for that, its a little over my head and I would have know idea how to or where to use it.
Mike most they guys with a fly pole want us gone also, the sportsman clubs that are getting hit with where they can ride their four wheelers may pitch in. David has sound advice, now if I can get him to dumb it down for me HA.
The only way to really get a politician is votes, if every miner, hunter, horse back, atv, dirt bike rider where to get together and bitch about whats going one with the lands and streams we use you might sway a vote, notice I left out the fishermen most of them hate us. We need to police ourselves also, not to excite you but I see the most damage near streams done by high bankers. I have seen roads, rocks, trees, banks undercut, holes not filled in, have even seen a pit dug in a camp ground, we have some dredgers that are not so nice to ma nature but least come spring run off you will never know a dredger was there. I stop and talk to anyone I see long Grimes and let them know the BAD miners are going to ruin it for everyone, seems to help. Feel free to give me a call if you want.
208-571-5967 if I don't answer leave me a message and I'll get back to ya.

[David Jackson Ingraham]

The Reason I brought up the duty of the 9th and 10th amendment, as to show that we the people have a right to mine per the 1872 mining law, Which gave us the right to do so. Sense this is a law providing a right, it too, is protected by the 9th amendment, and any new laws and regulations with a restriction of these rights should not prevail with there restriction of our mining right. Dredging is a method for gold or mineral mining. This is the only capable way to do so for the resource being located under water, other than by diverting the whole stream bed to mine the bottom of the existing stream, which is a great deal more destructive to the environment.

[Mike S.]

Hello my friends, fellow miners and outdoors man and outdoors woman,
I'm sending out this letter to let you know what is going on behind your backs by the Idaho Conservation League (ICL). In the last 18 months they have been trying there hardest to shut down our rite to recreational mine in the state of Idaho. Once they get a foothold the chances of loosing all access to the PUBLIC LANDS are at risk of being lost forever. These people must be stopped. Recreational mining could be using a small gold pan while camping with the kids or using a small suction dredge to retrieve the gold from the nooks and crannies of stream and river bottoms. They have been spreading the lies that recreational mining destroys fish habitat and kills fish, destroys spawning beds and pollutes the earth. This could not be further from the truth.
Since the mid to late 1800's mining has been a way of life for many Idahoans as well as other states. The practices have changed dramatically over the years and the fish and aquaculture that live in these streams continue to flourish. In fact the fish and game departments throughout the west use suction dredges to revitalize, build and rebuild spawning beds for trout and salmon. Why is it when the F&G dept. uses a dredge it's called INVIGORATING but when a miner uses a dredge it's called pollution.
There is no clear evidence that recreational mining harms fish any more than mother nature does with the millions of cubic yards she deposits each spring with the runoff and after storms and slides. It's because the ICL wants to shut all of the outdoors down so they can have it for there own. Why can't they share it like everyone else. Have you noticed all the road closures in the Idaho City, Lowman, Atlanta areas recently??? It's quite alarming.
As of now the EPA is deciding our fate. Without your voice they most likely will lean towards the ICL and shut us down forever as they have had a head start on us but I feel we can catch up to these people that want to shut down the outdoors and surpass them with our numbers by sending a letter to the EPA as well as your congress person. The person to contact at the EPA is Cindi Godsey you can email her at godsey.cindi@epa.gov or give her a call at (907) 271-6561 and let her know that you are concerned and don't want your rites as a recreational miner taken away because of someone else's selfishness. Don't be rude or nasty, she's a real nice lady and wants to listen to us. I don't think she has heard from many recreational miners or sportsman but she has heard from lots of ICL members. Let her know that we have been going by the guidelines and rules set by the Idaho Dept. of Water Resources (IDWR) and the Dept. of Environmental Quality (DEQ) for many years and that there has not been one claim against a recreational miner except that we are seen by the ICL from time to time panning with the kids or running a small dredge.
PLEASE take the time to write her.
Thanks for reading thru all of this. Time is short so sending a letter would to Cindi needs to happen sooner than later.
Mike Szwec

[David Jackson Ingraham]

I Will write the EPA and share some of the same concerns that we have in California with regards to the Environmentalist take over of our public land. The rights of the people need to be protected.
Also. We as a nation do not need this injustice to the liberty of the people that is becoming the instrument of government service.

[Mike S.]

Thanks David. We need to get this sent out to as many people as possible so we can head this off before we become like California. Unfortunately California has a bad rap here in Idaho with them from the flats moving up here to get away from the bullshit in California only to bring there liberal socialist agenda with them. The majority of the morons on the idaho conservation league are californians that transplanted here, go figure. At least we have them corraled up and know where they are.... The EPA needs to be disbanded and thrown out along with the obama dinesty. They have destroyed what was once a great self sufficiante nation with all there regulations, fines and fee's......

[Ken B]

Savelakelowel.com they are trying to get regs passed that will control its use and be under fed control. GREAT bass lake wonder if we can work on getting the bass and boat clubs into the fight with the EPA and DEQ.

[David Jackson Ingraham]

It is time to take these EPA hoodlums to court. Your rights to mine per the 1872 mining law is protected per the 9th and 14th amendment of the Constitution. Go dredge and if they catch you, then they have to justify their regulation in court, with out prejudice. They have to prove their claims of environmental damage. Should the state be in disagreement with the EPA, then they too can pass law declaring that the EPA regulations are bogus based on unreasonable environmental conclusions for the regulation. Of course in California The environmentalist have an insane hold on the state legislature.

[Ken B]

The EPA has two people working in the area and the have no intentions of hunting down dredgers, it's the Idaho Conservation League that is after us, as Mike said most are transplants who seem to think Idaho needs to be like the state they moved from. Well if they liked it so well that they want to live in a state like they used to, move your ass back is how I feel. Most are from the Sun Valley and Ketchum area here in Idaho two towns I avoid period.
I do believe the DEQ is trying to back door a law to shut us down just not sure what they are up to yet.